Ok, this game was haunting me for almost twenty years now, and at least for five I wanted to create a remake of it. And while I still want to create some monumental piece of art, the greatest game ever, I know that I will never do it. No, if I am working on engine and doing some uber boring stuff just to start going. So I decided to switch to C# and start working on actual game creating some engine on the way.
Of course I don't want to create just a remake of Dragontorc. I don't even know if it will be possible, if there won't be any problems with copyrights. But if there will be, it's not that complicated to change it a little bit to have unique game. Anyway, I already want to add some new features and modify existing ones.
Because I do it in my spare time and I don't have much of it, it may take far amount of months, just to have some early playable game, but it is much better to have one working game than thousands of ideas, few started, none completed, right?
Great to hear someone else, not only remember the game, but consider it a great game - as I do.
ReplyDeleteI can't help with the programming, but would be happy to help in someway if I could. Fantastic news that you are attempting to remake it. Like you say, don't make a copy, have the same interface with Maroc and involve him in a different adventure. Sure that would appeal to the game's many fans.
Thanks. Probably when almost done I will need few people to help testing the game, so there is always a chance to help.
ReplyDeleteAnd about a different adventure... I have huge surprise related to that although that has to wait for now but in the end, besides that thing, I'd like to have an editor (or at least some easy script-like description) so people could create their own adventures in world of Dragontorc.
Sounds fascinating. Now my anticipatory juices are flowing as is my impatience. I know you are working on this in your free-time, but I'm driven to ask, when will this be ready in any form?
ReplyDeleteAnyway, thank you once again, for attempting to remake this wonderful game.
Final product won't be available too soon as I am currently just closing MS2 (Mile Stone). I just want to add one feature that I had planned for that MS. And having couple of other things on my mind (one of them being house in which there is no single month that something doesn't go wrong - yesterday it was a laundry machine) doesn't really help. But just keep visiting this blog from time to time :)
ReplyDeleteI am going to limit myself to just post something new every MS with just occasional posts about something other interesting that may happen. Example for that may be post about my mail to Steve Turner, author of original Dragontorc, but this may happen in future when I will have something that looks like almost finished game.
Great job. MS2 certainly has a similar kinaesthetic feel to the original. Really like the idea of it being a piece of software that can be built upon - I have some great ideas for storylines! A quick personal resume of what made the original so good was:
ReplyDelete1. Obviously the story - loved the way that it started out as a quest to find the 5 crowns and this changed as one delved into the game further;
2. The opening up of areas as one solved problems. This always had one wondering what was behind the next door and increased the addictive quotient of the game;
3. The spells and the excitement in wondering what the spell did - sometimes this was recondite which added to the interest;
4. The different denizens of the different areas: elves in the forest; wraiths in the dungeon areas
5. The cleverness of the puzzles. I remember in Avalon, specifically the Great Halls of the Deep. There was a hole in the wall and a key on a string. All I could find was a piece of cheese. Solution: smear it over the hole; catch the mouse that comes out and use it to eat through the rope, thereby releasing the key - great.
6. The pacing of the game - pure arcade thrills one second hen outrunning a goblin, and cerebral work the next when one had escaped to a quiet area and was working on a problem.
In terms of improvements, I always thought the capo di capi in both games aka BOSS, was rather puny: The Lord of Chaos in Avalon was a skull-shaped box and in Dragontroc, Morag the Shapeshifter - who looked the part, but just sat there while fireballs came out of her head.
Anyway, that's my t'ppence worth. Keep up the great work.
Thank you for all notes :) I will try to reply to all of them:
Delete1. I don't have too many details (just some ideas) on how I want to develop that but for sure I don't want to have all-random story nor I want to have stories that have to be written by human.
2. That will be for sure. Many different areas, connected together. Currently I am thinking about two level of dividing world. At lower level I want to have just separate environments - forests, wilderness, caves, castles, tombs, dungeons etc. At higher level those low-level zones would be connected together and you would travel (sort of minigame probably or maybe just a very short cutscene, I don't know yet if I want to be true to original game) just between those high-level zones.
3. That is something that I am a little bit worried about ;) It is straightforward with items, using them, enemies, but magic and spells may add huge new dimension to the game and I want to have that, not just few extra things that player can do.
4. That just goes nicely with 2. ;) And of course I want to have NPCs fighting NPCs, being afraid of each other or player, etc. That was in original game and I want to extend that.
5. It will depend on locations, items etc. Although I want to make it possible to create puzzles by hand, one very important thing will be auto generation of puzzles. As it will depend on items, their definition, puzzles may be complicated but shouldn't be crazy complicated. As an example of that wrong type of complication could come almost any adventure game made in 90s - no, I don't want to add non-obvious puzzles that would frustrate people (that with mouse is one of my favourite ones :) and it is clever, requires a little bit of thought but is not frustrating).
6. I'd like to balance it a little bit or give option to player - there still will be always need to fight or run away from enemies and to solve puzzles but some players may want to have more action oriented game and others want to focus more on puzzles. And there comes also auto regenerating health (yeah, I know...) and I want to have also couple of options regarding player: a) as original - astral body with just energy, on death comes back to physical body. b) similar but with regenerating energy, binding spells using that energy. c) "this became serious" - no astral body, just physical, so there would be health and energy - if you die, you die, end of adventure (you lose your savegame).
Bosses. I can't decide yet what to do with them. Nice final fight with boss could be great but I don't want to turn the game into a shooter. And I don't want to have a boss where you have to solve some puzzles around. Maybe if bosses would be random? As sometimes there is no final fight, main enemy just dies or runs away. For me, such anti-climax could work.
Lots of fascinating information there, Nomen.
DeleteAt this stage the most important aspect, I suspect, is the user interface and creating this - all of which is looking good.
In terms of your very full reply (thank you), Nomen, let me offer my own thoughts.
1. I'm not exactly sure what you mean here. I think the narrative should be quest-oriented but with twists along the way (much as Dragontorc was), and I have plenty of ideas if you are struggling.
2. I like the sound of this. The cut scene was a bit of a pain in the original, but I think it introduced a danger element and, as a player, you were careful before you ventured into one. In addition, I think they also had some approximate relevance to the maps - in terms of distance - which again was useful to the player, rather than just a random length. So I would suggest keeping them.
3. I agree the spells will be tricky. Although, they don't need to be massively complicated - remember the unseen spell (just blanked out Maroc and left his shadow). They tended to fall into 3 groups: attack spells, background defensive spells and interactive spells (work on objects). One thing that annoyed in the original was not knowing how many of a certain spell I had - there were the 3 icons and only when these started to deplete did I realise that the spell was about to run out. Moreover, some of the spells seemed to be infinite, but I wasn't sure which were.
4. Look forward to seeing what you create.
5. I also agree that daft solutions to puzzles does infuriate players and I am pleased you are going to ensure that remake won't have these. Having said that, I'm sure you don't want to make the blindingly easy; it's a tough balancing act that's for sure. However, I'm not quite sure what you mean by 'auto generation of puzzles' will that mean they are different for every game?
6. I really like your idea about the transition between astral self and real self - this will certainly add a dimension to the game. I know what you mean about end boss. However, having one certainly adds a real addicitive element to most games and both Avalon and Dragontorc had them. Having said that, it doesn't always need to end in the conventional way. Dragontorc had a couple of goals remember - not just Morag the Shapeshifter, but the finding of Merlin. I remember when I first played it and had killed Morag with the Hand and the game continued - I was amazed, especially when I headed to Cairndoom (not on main map) and thought what the hell was waiting for me there.
Anyway, Nomen, keep up great work.
P.S. Did you say you had been in contact with Steve Turner? If so, what did he have to say about your project? Tell him, if you get a chance, that Astroclone was a mistake and he should've made another Maroc game :->
There is much more going on under the hood and that takes all my time. And UI, while I am planning it, it will take some time until I start to implement it. And now for other questions (thank you for them :) )
Delete1. I don't want to have whole adventure and all quests created by hand. I will give more details and examples when I have it implemented, ok? :)
2. But you never knew when you entered that travel sequence and I'd like to avoid that. I really want to keep the length of the sequence that would be relevant to distance. I have some ideas how to keep them, make them nice addition and not frustrating.
3. Just blanking out Maroc isn't everything. AI needs to act properly ;) Same for other spells. Currently I have a list of spells from both games and some new. And that limit of 3 was annoying - I want to change that.
4. :)
5. Yes, the puzzles MIGHT be random. "Might" because some of them could be always the same for given part of adventure. The reason for that is to have greater replayability, make it possible for people to add items and objects that would be automaticaly incorporated into game and to "fill" adventure with something ;).
6. There can be always boss based on puzzles. It isn't anything unusual in games today :)
I haven't contact Steve Turner yet, but as soon as I have at least one fully playbale level, I will. Even now I see that I am going a little bit above and beyond original Dragontorc and I could as well just drop it as a remake (as just few people around the world would actually be interested in Dragontorc's remake) but for sure I want to credit Steve Turner as at least influence. The reason for that could be copyrights that maybe don't even belong to Steve Turner anymore :( And he is the author.
Thanks, Nomen for another detailed response. One or two thoughts.
Delete1. Still a little confused and look forward to see this, as you say, when it is implemented.
2. I think they were roughly relevant to distance, so there was one back from the Catacombs of the Undead in Avalon that was very long and a similar one that stretched the breadth of the game in Dragontorc. However, like you say, when leaving a room or an area you weren’t sure whether there was going to be a travel sequence there. Perhaps some door-shape or sign could portend that there is a travel area ahead.
3. Like the idea that you are going to have old and new spells. There wasn’t a limit of 3 remember. There was a set amount of certain spells and others seemed infinite, but, as I said earlier, it wasn’t until these 3 icons started disappearing that you were aware of this. So number of spells left would be a useful metric.
4. Think we’ve dealt with that one.
5. Sounds iintriguing. On the puzzle front, I liked the fact that many areas were, on the whole, self-contained but there was some overlap – for instance in Avalon the 4 items to kill the Lord of Chaos came from different areas, as did the portal items; in Dragontorc, the two-part moon key that was used in the Vaults of Locris was in 2 diffrerent areas. However, if everything is open and nothing is self-contained then it could lead to lots of frustrating wandering which is the bane for most adventure games players.
6. :->
7. Some interesting points in your final section. I agree that there aren’t that many people who are desperate to see a Dragontorc remake (although having looked around the internet (on and off) for a few years, there are certainly some). As for the copyright issue, remember that Dragontorc was a sequel to Avalon, indeed, the full title is Dragontorc of Avalon. So, you could easily incorporate Avalon into a title (e.g. The Chalice of Avalon, Caverns of Avalon, etc.) and it wouldn’t be breaching copyright (it’s already an overused place name from Arthurian legend).
8. I’d hope you were going to keep the medieval, mythical theme. Although, regarding copyright, Maroc the Mage may be problematic to use. However, you could easily change the name and have his son or friend as the game’s protagonist.
9. The weekly updates are an exciting addition and I look forward to reading them.
10. How did you manage to get Steve Turner’s e-mail? I must admit to having looked for it and drawn a blank.
Keep up the great work.
2. Oh, one thing. I want to keep short travels more in vein of cutscenes and long ones... I will have to think again about what I wanted to add and check how it will work out. Door shape or sign could work and I will have to think about it. Good idea :) I'd like to test simple pre-travel room that would indicate that you're about to travel somewhere, so you still have time to go back. But then, no enemies should be able to enter that room which means that you have time to take a rest there. So, whatever I will do, it may still change, because it may break flow of the game or just not fit the general mood.
Delete3. I probably messed up something, so I wasn't clear ;) But yes - there was limit of more than 3 and it was annoying to not know how much more do you have. I'd like to avoid having numbers on screen, but always it can be done with different icons that would mean 3, 9, 27 spells. But this will wait for final UI to be decided how to approach this and during development it will be a number.
5. I want to avoid having huge open world as a necessity to solve puzzles. Just as you wrote, self-contained areas with some items only required to be moved between them, makes much more sense. I hate tracing back etc. One of the ideas I was thinking about, was to have "chapters", which means - actual story chapters but also different parts of world, each composed of few areas, it could also help with story telling a little bit. And within those few areas, in each area there would be self-contained puzzles with one big puzzle to be solved to advance to next chapter. But there's one extra thing, that can be done due to puzzle generation with code. Basing on what items you bring with you to next chapter (or even to new area), you can have different puzzles :D
7. I forgot that it was in fact called Dragontorc of Avalon :) Good point. And yes, it could be called something of Avalon, but Avalon, as you mentioned, is a little bit overused and starts to appear generic, while Dragontorc is quite unique. Solution is ofcourse to come up with something completely original :) And then, maybe to add "of Avalon" to that, to have full title ;)
8. I want to keep it (fantasy) medieval, mythical. Unless something goes really wrong, but for now, I want it to be as close to original in that, as possible.
9. Maybe they will force me to spend more time on Dragontorc? To have something to write about each Sunday ;)
10. Check http://www.graftgold.com/ There's lot of fun stuff to read :) I don't remember how I found it. Hmm... maybe I could use original Dragontorc's name, Dragonwrath? Nah ;)
Some interesting responses N.L. Thanks.
ReplyDeleteRegarding pre-travel room. A good idea, as a sort of place to organise and/or look at objects and/or think about a particular problem on a particular level. Perhaps there could be some larger map you could have access to here. Rather than show the whole of the game area, it would only reveal the areas you had been to (or even completed). In addition, certain clues (remember the scrolls with messages on) could be revisited here, even hermetic puzzles to solve. Although, this final idea would distract from the game, I’m sure.
Use of different icons for spells is a great suggestion. Maybe they could link to amount and it is up to the player to remember how many they have left. In addition, they could link to type and what they do. I must admit, I thought Steve Turner’s approach of including a little epithet which outlined a rough use for the spell was terrific, also e.g. Move – project thy soul, etc.
Chapters are okay, but they might limit the game’s open structure and increase its linearity. Most of D’torc was closed, but some was open (as explained earlier). In addition, it could be completed in any order, although if the clues were followed correctly, there was a definite order to it. In Avalon there was an order, too, but far more dictated by the structure of the underground world i.e. Gatehouse to Wayroom then you had a choice of three, then the Labyrinth, etc. Slight aside, there is a door on the Gatehouse level, which I have never opened, I’m not sure it’s possible, but if you’ve managed it, would love to know how.
I’m pleased you are keeping to the fantasy medieval theme. It just feels like the game’s natural place. Even though, Astro-clone had the annoying shooting section, the robot section, even though similar, if inferior, to D’torc, didn’t feel right.
I have been reading the updates with interest, although, not being too au fait with computer programming I can’t profess to understand all of it.
I looked at Steve Turner’s e-mail and it seems to be quite defunct now: I believe it’s a very old website. A pity, that.
A couple of final thoughts, would like the game to have replay value so secret sections/areas that aren’t essential to completion of the main game, but do have something of value, would be good. Maybe there could be targets such as: find all the spells, visit all locations, etc., which could be sub-games within the main game.
Have you thought of power-ups to Maroc that could link to his growing wisdom as a mage? Both Avalon and D’torc had a ranking system but it was rather crude and made no difference to Maroc in the game, this could be improved definitely. However, too much power-ups and weaponry may detract from the cerebral part of the game which I enjoyed so much.
Finally the servant could be more of a character, whereby he interacts more with Maroc, perhaps talking, giving clues, turning different colours in certain situations: danger, secret place, etc.
Just a few thoughts, but, as always, keep up the great work.
Johnny
Thank you for all ideas :) But first things first:
ReplyDeleteI still don't know how to handle those pre-travel rooms, as as you pointed out, this could break the flow of the game. But maybe it is good to have such rooms, so players could catch a breathe. By hermetic puzzles you mean item-based or maybe something more like "Tau Ceti"'s or "Impossible Mission"'s puzzles? I liked both games and I really liked to collect all the pieces and then have to bring them together.
Yes, descriptions of spells were great and I'd like to keep them. But maybe with a variation for both name and description, just to increase replayability value. But maybe that's bad idea?
Having a story with distinctive points could require separate areas/sets of areas, although they alone should be able to complete in any order. Maybe even ignore some puzzles. And as for that door in Gatehouse level. I don't remember where I read it, but these door are... I don't know what to call it. If you open it (hack/cheat?) and go through it, game crashes.
Astro-clone in my opinion was too much for a Speccy game, but done today, modified a little, could be fun. But, talking in general now, I'd like to avoid mixing genres - in most cases people actually don't want that as there are not too many people who are good in everything. If someone wants to solve puzzles, they might be annoyed with arcade sections and the same with other way.
Steve Turner's website is still up, so maybe that e-mail address is fine. If not, I will try to find him by other means (he still programs, right? :) ).
Power-ups? Hm. Just as levelling up. I think that just getting new spells have similair role, but it might be not as clear as new level, xp, power ups etc. But then - maybe that's good and maybe people would find it original now, even if it was normal many years ago. Having some spells locked until you get something could work, I guess. Maybe having some chests, pictures, some background items that could be unlocked with late-game spell, could bring that feeling into the game... But it would also mean back-tracking.
And I really really like the idea for servant. Both talking/clues and colours. As an option of course, as some players may want just to have servant working as a hand ;)
Following the updates NL, it looks like the new milestone may be reached quite shortly, so excited about seeing how it is all progressing.
DeleteIn terms of your last posting, I think my idea about puzzles in this pre-travel room is a poor one as it will detract from the players’ immersion within the game world which was one of the real strengths of the game. Even the menu system was on-screen and real-time which avoided having a cut-away screen as so many other games tended to do.
Good to hear you want to keep the spells’ descriptions (with the odd tweak). Perhaps the scrolls could be differently shaped or coloured with regard to what the spell’s function was: attack, defence, reveal, etc.
The idea of not solving all the puzzles and yet solving the game, certainly increases the replayability value of the game. I think the player has to be rewarded for solving all the puzzles, though, so perhaps the ending may be different or different areas in the game are opened up or unlocked. The ‘percentage’ score on Dragontorc was a good idea, although, it automatically jumped to 100 when you completed the game, however many problems you solved. In addition, thanks for clearing up the locked door issue in Avalon.
You’re right about Astro-clone and mixing genres. In trying to pack too much in, Turner, in my opinion, alienated both shoot-em up and adventure fans, but I still applaud the ambition.
Glad to hear you like the servant idea. I always thought he was a tremendous character within the game who was perhaps underused. Maybe he could move beyond one room, or have energy like Maroc, so will need protecting and/or replenishing.
Anyway, lots more ideas but will wait to see what the next MS looks like and then I will be clearer on what may work and what won’t.
Keep up the great job :->
Johnny
The milestone is closer and closer. I read some old posts during weekend and looked at my schedule and not only I realised that I could break MS3 into 2-3 milestones, I see now that some of the functionality that is already done, was planned for further milestones :)
DeleteNext milestone will be about travels, but if I don't like anything I do for that, I will still keep it, as an option. By the way, I try to write down all ideas to have them at hand (this is also about servant, scrolls and few other things you have mentioned).
One of my worries is that Dragontorc in its original form, could be too much of a mix for many players. Although an option which would allow to focus on puzzles, action or both, could help with that.
NM sounds like you have gone well beyond the parameters of the present milestone and I'm very excited to see what the game looks like.
ReplyDeleteI must admit I hope to see Dragontorc in its original form in terms of the user interface. Obviously the graphics and sound to be spruced up. I think it would be a mistake to try to change it too much for contemporary gamers. However, that depends who you are making the game for. Retro gamers will love it, but in terms of a market they aren't as prevalent.I don't know if you know the website Retro Remakes - now called OWVideogames (http://retroremakes.com/nostalgia/), but there is a lively community there who would be really interested in the game. I know, because a while back I tried to get a remake of the ground by suggesting interested parties should pay to create one. Perhaps you should drop them a line on the main forum - there will be lots of constructive feedback that's for sure.
Pleased you manage to get hold of original copies of the games. I bought mine at the time of the games' release, although they are rather dog-eared these days. I take it you are Polish, but I'm curious as to how you came across the game/s as pre-1989 I'm not sure there'd have been much of a gaming community. Singing off for now, but once again, can't wait to see what you've created for next MS!
Cheers
Johnny
Currently it looks awful ;) And I know that I will spend some time on adjusting speeds, accelerations and other movement parameters, not mentioning graphics.
DeleteI know Retro Remakes and I will put some info about remake there, but not yet. I'd like to get some better graphics first, so it won't scare people ;) And I will need as much feedback as possible, so this will happen for sure.
I want this game to appeal to fans of original games and to new players - both those that look for a challenge and those that just want to play something more relaxing. This may of course change and I think that there is no need to worry in advance :)
I first read about Dragontorc in a magazine ("Komputer") - there was solution that was divided into four parts, four issues of magazine and it made my imagination working and stuck to me. Then I found Avalon on one of tapes that my dad brought home, but I couldn't get my hands on Dragontorc and I think that I played it for first time on emulator.
In pre-1989 it was underground - I remember just one place where I could buy games and I remember that at some point Populous poster appeared there. I know that there were flea markets were you could buy games but I never went to one. I also remember some other points in markets, where you could buy tapes with collections of games. Now it seems funny that there were dozens of tape decks copying cassettes :) Actually I don't remember if it was possible to buy any original, non-polish game back then.
My congratulations, Nomen. Gosh, those few moments of seeing Maroc's ethereal self floating around really took me back.
ReplyDeleteI so wanted to take the controls and begin guiding him on an adventure. Alas, that may be some way off yet!!!
Anyway, you have addressed my only real criticism which was the size of the figures. Apart from that, they are almost indistinguishable from the originals, although the extra frame in the skeletons' movement certainly adds a little extra
Your new updates are very detailed, but as I have repeatedly stated, I am not very computer literate, so much of it goes over my head. I did manage to discern, though, how much work has gone into this already. I think you mentioned in an earlier post that there was a 'lot of work under the hood', your updates are reinforcing that very fact. I have to ask and feel free to not answer, but have you a time-frame for when there may be a playable adventure up and running?
Anyway, that's about all I can muster for now, Nomen. Hope you're encouraged by how good it looks and how much you've achieved. I await the details of the next MS with great interest.
Keep coding :->
Johnny
Thank you :)
DeleteThe problem I have now and probably have it for some time is that I can't tell how much spare time do I have each week. Currently (as I will also write in weekly update) I am temporarily doing support service after getting back home which also happens quite late. And from time to time I have such periods of not being able to do anything :(
Hence I can't give a time-frame for first playable.
But I want to have some small playable versions of game that I could use for focus tests. To get feedback about game, controls, feeling etc.
Haven't written for a while but I assure you am following the weekly updates. I can't say I exactly understand all of them, but I get the general gist of what they're about. I am pleased you are back on with the actual game. my own personal opinion is the editor is a bit of a distraction and it would be great for fans of the game (none more so than me) if we had an actual game to revisit and play. Anyway, Nomen, just wanted to say a big thumbs up to you. Keep up the great work.
ReplyDeleteJohnny
:) I only work on game. Everything that is done there is done purely for game as editor I consider only as thing that I might to in some distant future. I'd rather prefer to make game work as platform that can be setup to test stuff and someone else to write editor and use game to allow testing.
DeleteFor sure game won't be same as original - although I'd like to keep all elements from original game, maybe just in different order or context :)
How is the development of the game, my friend. Regards
ReplyDeleteStopped. I didn't expect much interest, decided to start working full-time on my own game. Currently, I am working on a vr game called Tea For God. Bits of the Dragontorc are there and I'd love to get back to Dragontorc remake afterwards. Although most likely with a different name and setting.
Deleteok, thanks, i wait,;). Where You finish teo for god, please inform. By
ReplyDelete